[PaulyD]

Okay, I've joined Club Duende.

The flexibility and the features of the channel strip tops anything I've ever seen in a plug-in. It's not difficult to use though. The interface and the accompanying manual are excellent. But all that doesn't mean squat if it doesn't sound good, right? Well, this thing just sounds amazing to me.

I've started off testing Duende by re-mixing a tune I've already mixed, but I was waiting for Duende before sending it off for mastering to see if Duende would make a difference. This piece is drums, 5 layered electric guitars (2 of which are grinding away almost continuously throughout the piece), electric bass guitar, and a couple of special fx tracks.

My first-call EQ plug-ins have been the URS Classic Console EQ's due to their having high-pass filtering and phase reverse. UAD-1 is my first-call for dynamics. Essentially, I just unfroze these tracks and replaced the URS and UAD-1 plug-ins with the Duende channel strip, then set the high-pass filters close to the same frequencies I was using before. Naturally, the compression settings took a little more work, but I was pleasantly surprised by how quickly I was able to dial in a really nice sound with Duende. The drums are sub-mixed to a stereo bus and I put the Duende bus compressor across that.

For reverb and modulation fx, I usually use sends/busses. I admit I also got the IK Multimedia Classic Studio Reverb at the same time as Duende. The reverb for some of the guitars and the reverb for the drums were replaced by IK CSR. There have been threads here already about this wonderful reverb...

SSL and Lexicon...Can you say "80's hair metal"? That's the sound I was going for and now this tune sounds so much better, I can't believe it -- and I'm still not done with it. I already know there are a few more tweaks where Duende is going to help. So how does the Duende sound? Like Lloyd and Jim said, "aggressive but pleasant" and "sounds like a record." You just have to experience it for yourself to really understand it though.

I won't say URS and UAD-1 are going to take a dirt nap on my system. Far from it, especially where the UAD-1 is concerned. I'm still using some UAD-1 dynamics in this tune. But now that I'm not loading the UAD-1 so hard with the Duende carrying the load, I'm not having to freeze tracks on this project. This is really speeding up my work flow!

The only down side so far, is sometimes I hear little crackles right before the tune starts playing. If I stop Logic Pro 7.2.2 and start playing again, the crackle is not there. In cycle mode, the crackle is not there. Just be aware of this if you're mixing or bouncing with Duende. Before you jump on one of these things though, read over the FAQ at SSL's web site. They are having some conflicts with some hardware and software. Even though I have LaCie FireWire drives (one of the devices they are having issues with), I'm not having any problems so far. fwiw, I connected Duende to the FW800 port on my Power Mac G5 with a Belkin 6-pin to 9-pin FireWire cable. It's not sharing that bus/controller with any other devices on my system.

Okay, sorry for another one of my looooooong posts. I'm just giddy right now...

Paul

[Jim F]

Paul,

Congrats!! Duende delivers the goods, that's for sure.

However, I have been having some issues with it. I won't go into too much detail here, because I'm currently working with SSL in LA trying to trouble shoot.

Up until I read your post, I was convinced it was a conflict with the UAD card. Mainly, because I've been doing a lot of mixes this past week, and on the last few songs, I held off using any UAD plug-ins until I absolutely knew one of the UAD plug-ins was needed.

With complete consistency , when I would finally load a UAD plug-in, mainly the 1176, the audio would start to stutter, or completely stop being heard. The meters on the individual tracks were showing activity, but the audio was blocked from Logic's output object. Only quitting Logic, turning Duende off, and then back on, and relaunching Logic gets things back. Removing the UAD plug-iin at that point made no difference... the damage was done, so to speak.

If, however, I freeze the tracks that use UAD plug-ins, Duende is happy, and everything continues as it should.

So, I've already PM'd Lloyd, asking him to try running a bunch of Duende plug-ins, and then add an 1176 or two. Would you mind doing the same?

If you have no issues, than I can start looking at system specific conflicts. That could take a while, but at least we'd know that it's not a conflict with the UAD card.

Oh, and make sure when you test this, that you have a Duende Buss compressor on the master output of Logic, as well as one or two on busses. Based on my experiences so far, that may actually play a part in this, that's why I mentioned adding the buss plug-in at those spots.

[PaulyD]

Hi Jim,
I can definitely run those tests. As a matter of fact, I have a UAD-1 1176 on the bass in this tune I'm working on. However...that is the one track I didn't unfreeze, so I will have to test that. I didn't unfreeze it because I'm totally happy with the bass. I'm not using any filters or EQ on it. Just the UAD-1 1176. fwiw, I'm still running UAD-1 v4.3 software.

I can PM you or post the results here if anyone else is interested.

btw, are you running LP7.2.2?? Your sig says 7.2.1. I would definitely update if you haven't already and see if that helps. Otherwise, I sure hope SSL can quickly clear this up for you. This thing is instantly addicting...

Paul

[Jim F]

Thanks Paul.

Go ahead and post 'em here, in case anyone else down the road has similar problems. They might benefit. I'd surely like to see something positive come of this ordeal!

I've been a bit reluctant to jump to 7.2.2, because I had heard it was for a fix for the Mac Pros, and didn't have any benefit for us PPC guys. If that's not the case, then I will update.

Now that you mention it, SSL in England told me they had tested Duende with Logic 7.1, 7.2, and 7.2.2, but they didn't mention specifically 7.2.1. Hmmm... you never know...

I am on UAD 4.4 though. I wonder if that will make a difference? Actually, on second thought, it shouldn't, because I just updated to 4.4 last week, and have been having these troubles for longer than that.

I hear you about them being addicting though. I can't imagine mixing drums without it now!

[Bakerman]

Hey Jim, in the right discussion now!...

yes I will check out 1176 and other UAD plugs with it tomorrow and get back to you. I have the same type of Mac as you too, where only 70% of my UAD is effective.

Todays my first day with the Duende and the only thing that did misbehave was that the audio dropped out (like a slow stutter effect) when I used either of the 2 SSL plugs on a buss. Note when it was stuttering the actual plug in weren't altering the sound, as if they were bypassed....but stuttering! I physcially turned the Duende off and on again and all was sweet. I think V1.2 is out now so I will install this newer version and fingers crossed it freezes soon too. Gees it sounds good though

[Jim F]

...Todays my first day with the Duende and the only thing that did misbehave was that the audio dropped out (like a slow stutter effect) when I used either of the 2 SSL plugs on a buss. Note when it was stuttering the actual plug in weren't altering the sound, as if they were bypassed....but stuttering!

That's exactly one of the misbehaviors I get! And the fact that you mentioned that you got it when using Duende on a buss is REALLY intriguing, because I mentioned in one of my tech support emails to SSL, that I had an hunch that using Duende plug-ins on busses and Auxes could possibly be a main contributer to the problems I was experiencing.

I noticed that you have Drumkit from He**... try setting up a bunch of Auxes to feed the individual drums sounds. Put Duende channel strips on a handful of those Auxes (kick, snare, etc...) Do you get any problems doing that? Now add some channel strips to various tracks, and add a buss compressor on the main output. If everything's still o.k., add some UAD plug-ins on any track, particularly the 1176. Now what happens?

Let me know when you get some time to try it out.

[Bakerman]

hi Jim, tried the SSL on Aux tracks with DFH and yep, it does the stutter thing and there's again no actuall SSL processing to be heard. It also plays out of time - seems to be no compensation happening. Havent tried the 1176 combo as yet but will keep trying and post my reports here.. Any other Duende users out there having issues or is it just Jim & myself and our Dual 2Ghtz Macs!?

[Bakerman]

more roadtesting today and first I downloaded latest version and firmware updates. It was working better and loaded 4 x 1176LNs on busses as well as a bunch of SSL's on tracks and busses and didnt have any issues.

Then I waited and hit play again after a taking a phonecall...as the track played some of the SSL's on the channels they seem to go in and out of time and also affected the panning on some (if not all) of the SSL processed tracks momentarily, in a random nature. Tried various UAD plugs and 1176 not the only culprit here. Thought I had it sussed till i hit play again.

If it didnt sound so good I wouldnt bother persisting with it, but it does!

[Jim F]

If it didnt sound so good I wouldnt bother persisting with it, but it does!

I hear ya! I would have returned the unit a while ago if I didn't like it so much! I actually got confirmation from my sales guy at Sweetwater that I can take the time needed to sus this out, and if SSL can't get this figured out, I can still return it... but I really don't want to...

Thanks for taking the time to look into that. Mine seems to misbehave more consistently than what you're experiencing, but your post two posts up is EXACTLY one of the things that happens to me on a regular basis. I'm semi encouraged that you had it happen as well... which seems to indicate there is definitely something going on...

Post back if you have any other symptoms or abnormalities. I want it all documented here, so I can direct SSL to this thread. The more details we can describe, the better, I would think.

O.K. Paul... you're up!!

[PaulyD]

O.K. Paul... you're up!!

Well...I unfroze the bass track with the UAD-1 1176LN. I then added 4 more UAD-1 1176LN instances. I added two more Bus Compressor instances from Duende in addition to the one I was using already.

I am using BFD/BFD XFL for the drums in this tune, spread out across 14 aux channels. 12 of the 14 aux channels have Duende channel strips on them. I'm not using processing of any kind on the other two aux channels. Everything else in this project is digital audio.

I am not having any problems other than the occasional crackle mentioned in my review.

There is one thing I didn't put in my review. Maybe it would help you guys. The first thing I did was download the latest Duende software, install it, then update the Duende firmware. I also installed IK CSR at the same time. For some reason, when I tried to launch Logic after that, it was hanging on startup while trying to load the menu bar. I trashed the Cache folders from both /Library/ and ~/Library/, restarted the CPU, repaired disk permissions (a few were indeed repaired), launched Logic again, and away I went after AU validation was complete.

fwiw, I'm not summing this instrumental rock tune entirely in the box. I am stemming out across 8 stereo pairs via an Apogee DA-16X with the FireWire option card. The Apogee is plugged into the rear FW400 port on my G5 and, like the Duende, it's not sharing its port with any other devices. My two LaCie FW400 drives are daisy chained and plugged into the FW400 port on the front of the G5.

The only thing I've really noticed is if I try running this project from either my startup drive or one of the FW400 drives, the crackling becomes more pronounced and the first second or so of the song sometimes gets cutoff. Again though, if I stop Logic immediately and press play again, it's okay, and if I just let Logic cycle, it's okay. I am getting my best results though by playing projects from a second 300GB internal SATA drive in the G5.

Here's a test you guys might try: Run AU Manager and disable everything except the Duende plug-ins and the UAD-1 plug-ins, then test. Maybe there is a conflict with some other plug-in. If that works, start enabling plug-ins, maybe 5 at time, taking notes all the while. See if you can narrow it down to precisely what is incompatible. Disconnecting and re-adding back hardware a piece at a time may help to isolate the issue as well.

Have you guys read the Duende FAQ and checked to see if any of your gear is on their incompatible list?

Anway, I do have some ITB mixing coming up. We'll see if my luck holds up then, and we'll see if it holds up when I start using my various aggregate setups when dubbing.

I'm sorry you guys are having trouble. Hang in there.

Paul

This post has been edited by PaulyD: 27 September 2006 - 01:37 AM

[Bakerman]

thanks for the response Paul and will try disabling plugs as u suggest and see whats causing it. Have been thru the FAQ on SSL pages and I'm running compatible audio device. I also have no other FW400 devices connected so Duende aint sharing a thing on my FW buss.

[Jim F]

Thanks for the update Paul. I'm glad things are working in your favor... that's encouraging.

I've already been down the road of disabling devices... and what initially looked like it might be a conflict with my Lynx AES card, turned out to be a dead end road, because at one point I had the audio dropping out with only Built-in Audio running, and another time with just the RME Fireface running, which according to SSL, was an audio device they tested with Duende. They did admit to not testing with the Lynx card though.

The plug-ins test is a good one. I was starting to wonder if the problems I'm having are symptomatic of something else installed on my system. But what? There's so many variables... Testing plug-ins is a logical place to start, I would think.

[PaulyD]

Okay, test #2 today: 100% MITB with Duende

Once again, I took an existing tune I had already mixed. It necessarily has a lot of frozen tracks because I'm using a lot of UAD-1 plug-ins in this tune. This is due to it being assembled in SoundTrack Pro from about 9 different sample or loop libraries before being mixed in Logic. When you're smashing that many disparate parts together you have to jump through a lot of hoops to make it sound cohesive. UAD-1 helps a lot when things need "fixing"...

Anyway, I used an Apogee MiniDAC connected via USB. When I first unfroze a track and inserted a Duende plug-in, Logic's timing went all out of whack. I had to un-freeze and re-freeze all the tracks one at a time to get it back to normal. I had to do it one at a time with this tune because if I refresh all freeze files at once or unfreeze too many tracks at once, UAD-1 pops up a warning dialog that some plug-ins have been disabled, then I have to start over again...After that though it was all pretty stable.

This tune is all stereo tracks, so I maxed out the Duende using all channel strip plug-ins and it was still stable. Nice to know it can handle its advertised capacity without acting up.

Funny thing though, this tune didn't really improve with the Duende. It got noticeably brighter, even with the E series eq on the Duende channel strip. It was then that I realized this particular tune was going to be a lot of work to re-mix. It would almost be like starting from scratch and I'd probably wind up trying to make it sound like it already did with URS, UAD-1 and a few of Logic's plug-ins. fwiw, this tune is a 60's/70's style R&B/Funk tune with a few modern twists. Not surprisingly, UAD-1's vintage re-creations help out a lot with a tune like this...It's just as well. It was already on the mastering engineer's ftp server...

In conclusion, Duende passed the 100% MITB test, but these drivers do have a beta feel to them.

Paul

This post has been edited by PaulyD: 28 September 2006 - 01:09 AM

[Jim F]

Paul,

Thanks for the update.

Question... where do you have Duende plugged into, and what PCI devices are in the what PCI slots on your computer? (In other words, what order are they in?)

[Bakerman]

just reporting my further tests.. disabled all plugs trying to find the culprit but to no avail. I actually can't get the Duende to NOT stutter now and its unusable really... I'm at the end of my 'loan' period tomorrow and may revisit the unit down the track

[PaulyD]

Paul,

Thanks for the update.

Question... where do you have Duende plugged into, and what PCI devices are in the what PCI slots on your computer? (In other words, what order are they in?)

Hi Jim,
the Duende is plugged into the FireWire 800 port on the back of the G5 using a Belkin 6-pin to 9-pin FireWire cable. Duende has that port all to itself.

My UAD-1 card is in PCI-X slot 3, and there is a MOTU PCI-424 card in PCI-X slot 4. The MOTU card doesn't see much action these days. I have yet to test it with the Duende.

My two LaCie d2 FireWire 400 drives are daisy chained and plugged into the front FireWire 400 port on the computer. My DA-16X gets the rear FireWire 400 port all to itself.

Of course, the next test will be tracking or dubbing. That may be awhile yet. I'm firmly entrenched in mix mode for the time being...

Anyway, are you having any luck? How about you Bakerman?

Paul

[Jim F]

the Duende is plugged into the FireWire 800 port on the back of the G5 using a Belkin 6-pin to 9-pin FireWire

I forgot you could do that.... go into a FW 800 port from a FW400 Device. I think I have one of those cables around here. I'd like to try that, and see if it gets me anywhere.

I spent WAY too much time this week running various tests, many of which I already ran, but I really wanted to see how consistent the results were. But the bottom line for me, after all these tests, is that I can run Duende from here till Tuesday, using ANY audio driver, be it my AES-16, Fireface, built in audio, or my aggregate device which uses the AES-16 and the Fireface... and I have no problems whatsoever.

I can even add one or two UAD 1176's, or other UAD plug-ins, but when that third or fourth UAD plug-in gets added, I get the stuttering audio, or no audio at all. And the ONLY time I can get Duende to act up is when there is a UAD plug-in involved.

This all may still come down to a bandwidth issue, which may be the reason Paul isn't having issues, while Bakerman and I are. One of the support guys at the Duende forum said, to the best of his knowledge, that the G5's FW buss is fed off of the PCI buss. Does that sound right?

There's also a guy over at the MixBuss/ Duende forums having similar issues. He uses a 424 card as well. So Paul, If you can spare the time, would you mind putting the 424 card back into service, and run some more tests? My first thought is that, with your 424 card essentially out of the picture, you only have one PCI device in use, the UAD card. What kind of results would you get with 2 devices (the 424 card) sharing the bandwidth? And it's my understanding that slot 3 (where you UAD card is) and slot 4 (where your 424 card is) are on different PCI busses... is that correct?

[jbmix]

Hey Jim. I don't know if this will be relevant or not, but if it would help you to test your theories on an entirely different machine, you could bring Duende over to my place and check on my Dual 1Gig G4. I've got a 424 and UAD in my PCI scheme. I realize you're trying to get it working on your machine, but I thought I'd make the offer if that might figure into helping the cause at all.

Cheers.
jb

[Jim F]

Thanks jb, I might take you up on that. I'll call you about it...

One thing that was a bit disconcerting to me, was one of the support guys at the Duende forum, said they hadn't tested Duende with the 424 card (in response to the other guy there who was having similar problems as me).

Not tested the 424 card? Huh? Although I have openly admitted to not being the biggest MOTU fan on the planet, aren't MOTU's line of interfaces that use the 424 card fairly popular? I would've thought that would be the first PCI card they'd test with. And tech support told me they hadn't tested Duende with the AES-16 card I use.

So, did they not test with ANY PCI cards? Never mind, I just went and found this at their website. Here's a list of what they did test Duende with..

Built-in Mac Audio
Digidesign 002R
Digidesign Mbox 2
Digidesign Pro Tools HD Accel
M-Audio Firewire Solo
M-Audio Delta 1010
M-Audio Audiophile 192
Metric Halo 2882
MOTU 828mkII
MOTU HD192
RME Fireface 800
RME Hammerfall
Yamaha O1X
Apogee Ensemble

The MOTU HD192 is a 424 interface, and the RME Hammerfall is a PCI card to, right? So this support guy at the forum was wrong. That's assuring...

[jbmix]

Interesting. Maybe the guy on the forum was think in terms of actual interface model numbers, and didn't recognize '424' as an interface they had tested. That's all I can figure. Either that, or they did not actually test with the HD192. As I mentioned to you privately before, I tried really hard to convince them that they needed more beta testers (like ME for instance!) before they released this thing. But from my information, they may have proceeded with a small beta team located only in the UK. And from the looks of the list of interfaces they say they tested with, it would appear that they focused on Digi systems. Too bad.