Help
I made these mockups last year for a cartoon series using VSL and East West Gold. Didn't get to mix them properly here, but they were recorded live.
I didn't do most of the themes/melodies, just orchestrated or adapted them as necessary.
Hope you like these! Comments are welcome. I'd appreciate suggestions about mixing, room space and such, as I am still learning to do these things.
http://alonetone.com/mrvo28/tracks/terry-ep9-cue3
http://alonetone.com/mrvo28/tracks/terry-ep9-cue4
http://alonetone.com/mrvo28/tracks/terry-ep9-cue5
Page 1 of 1
Cues from a Cartoon
Promote to Article
#2
re-peat 
- Sonik Freak
-
- Group: Sonik Supporters(supporter)
- Posts: 3,458
- Joined: 13-November 02
- Gender:Male
Posted 13 November 2008 - 12:01 PM
Mrvo28,
I've been contemplating for a few days now what to reply and how best to do it, and I don't see any other way than simply being brutally straightforward. I hope you don't mind. Thing is, those fragments don't really sound all that good. (I'm not commenting on the music itself, but on the mock-up and the rendering.)
Your sounds don't seem to live in the same space, the dynamics between the various instruments/sections don't match, many of the phrases are static and lifeless, and the programming often lacks the detail and subtlety which is needed to turn your sampled orchestra into an organic and digestible ensemble. In short: it all sounds very one-dimensional and very 'midi'.
Now, if these sketches were made with the single objective of providing an aural guide for the musicians who had to perform these pieces live, then you've certainly succeeded: the music translates very well and all the orchestration ideas are perfectly outlined. But as mock-ups, they don't really stand strong, I'm affraid.
I think that, much better and a million times more informative than listening to what people have to say about these midi-renderings, is to compare them with the live recordings. Having those recordings available is an invaluable luxury which few people who do orchestral mock-ups have, and I strongly suggest you try and take full advantage of this. Comparing and studying the two versions should tell you all there is to say.
_
I've been contemplating for a few days now what to reply and how best to do it, and I don't see any other way than simply being brutally straightforward. I hope you don't mind. Thing is, those fragments don't really sound all that good. (I'm not commenting on the music itself, but on the mock-up and the rendering.)
Your sounds don't seem to live in the same space, the dynamics between the various instruments/sections don't match, many of the phrases are static and lifeless, and the programming often lacks the detail and subtlety which is needed to turn your sampled orchestra into an organic and digestible ensemble. In short: it all sounds very one-dimensional and very 'midi'.
Now, if these sketches were made with the single objective of providing an aural guide for the musicians who had to perform these pieces live, then you've certainly succeeded: the music translates very well and all the orchestration ideas are perfectly outlined. But as mock-ups, they don't really stand strong, I'm affraid.
I think that, much better and a million times more informative than listening to what people have to say about these midi-renderings, is to compare them with the live recordings. Having those recordings available is an invaluable luxury which few people who do orchestral mock-ups have, and I strongly suggest you try and take full advantage of this. Comparing and studying the two versions should tell you all there is to say.
_
#3
mrvo28
Posted 14 November 2008 - 12:48 AM
QUOTE (re-peat @ Nov 13 2008, 12:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Mrvo28,
I've been contemplating for a few days now what to reply and how best to do it, and I don't see any other way than simply being brutally straightforward. I hope you don't mind. Thing is, those fragments don't really sound all that good. (I'm not commenting on the music itself, but on the mock-up and the rendering.)
Your sounds don't seem to live in the same space, the dynamics between the various instruments/sections don't match, many of the phrases are static and lifeless, and the programming often lacks the detail and subtlety which is needed to turn your sampled orchestra into an organic and digestible ensemble. In short: it all sounds very one-dimensional and very 'midi'.
Now, if these sketches were made with the single objective of providing an aural guide for the musicians who had to perform these pieces live, then you've certainly succeeded: the music translates very well and all the orchestration ideas are perfectly outlined. But as mock-ups, they don't really stand strong, I'm affraid.
I think that, much better and a million times more informative than listening to what people have to say about these midi-renderings, is to compare them with the live recordings. Having those recordings available is an invaluable luxury which few people who do orchestral mock-ups have, and I strongly suggest you try and take full advantage of this. Comparing and studying the two versions should tell you all there is to say.
_
I've been contemplating for a few days now what to reply and how best to do it, and I don't see any other way than simply being brutally straightforward. I hope you don't mind. Thing is, those fragments don't really sound all that good. (I'm not commenting on the music itself, but on the mock-up and the rendering.)
Your sounds don't seem to live in the same space, the dynamics between the various instruments/sections don't match, many of the phrases are static and lifeless, and the programming often lacks the detail and subtlety which is needed to turn your sampled orchestra into an organic and digestible ensemble. In short: it all sounds very one-dimensional and very 'midi'.
Now, if these sketches were made with the single objective of providing an aural guide for the musicians who had to perform these pieces live, then you've certainly succeeded: the music translates very well and all the orchestration ideas are perfectly outlined. But as mock-ups, they don't really stand strong, I'm affraid.
I think that, much better and a million times more informative than listening to what people have to say about these midi-renderings, is to compare them with the live recordings. Having those recordings available is an invaluable luxury which few people who do orchestral mock-ups have, and I strongly suggest you try and take full advantage of this. Comparing and studying the two versions should tell you all there is to say.
_
Hi re-peat,
Thank you very much for the straightforward feedback. I will do just that - compare the MIDI guides with the actual orchestra result. I am just at a loss as to how to make it more dynamic, meaning if I am to mix it straight in Logic 7, is there a good way to automate levels, panning, etc.? All of the samples reside in PC's outside of where I run the DAW, so there is no way to mix the channels individually, apart from rendering all into audio and then mixing from there. (Is that the most efficient procedure?) The other option is to create a mix in Gigastudio and Kontakt, in which case I still have to figure out if there is a way to automate at all.
Sheesh, sorry if this sounds confusing! I'm very new at this.
Thanks again for the feedback!
#4
re-peat
- Sonik Freak
-
- Group: Sonik Supporters(supporter)
- Posts: 3,458
- Joined: 13-November 02
- Gender:Male
Posted 14 November 2008 - 03:52 AM
Mvro,
Yes, you have to find some way of being able to control as much of an instrument's characteristics as your setup (hardware and software) allows you to, either by working with midi controllers or by automating the audio signal, although you'll find that you always end up doing a combination of those two. Unfortunately, I don't know enough of your particular rig, nor am I in any way familiar with Gigastudio, so I can't really make any suggestions on how to proceed. But the main thing is: samples are dead sounds, and it's up to you to breath some illusion of life into them - whatever it takes.
The first requirement of being able to breath life into samples is to think more like a performer, instead of a programmer. Take that oboe line in the third clip for instance: that is not 'performed', it is merely programmed. The notes are all in place, yes, but there it ends. And it shouldn't. Putting the notes in place is only the beginning. Because then you've got to start shaping the contour of each and every note (in order to communicate the musical phrase in the most expressive way), and pay close attention to note transitions - some can be abrupt, others should be more fluid. Also consider where to introduce some vibrato (usually on notes that have some sustain) and how to shape the dynamic curve of the whole thing. And all the while: think like a performer. If you program an oboe, become an oboe player. If you program the timpani, be a timpani player.
I know, it's terribly complex and it's an awful lot of work, but that's the nature of this virtual orchestra beast. No short cuts here.
Secondly: space. If you're creating a virtual orchestra, you have to decide on a space in which your orchestra will live. Just ONE space that is, not several spaces like you have now. Often (but not always) this space will be determined to a large extent by the type of libraries that you use, especially in the case of the EastWest libraries because these have a very prominent 'ambience' imbedded in their samples. The moment you use EastWest Gold, your choice of space is pretty much fixed: it needs to be a lush reverberant venue of substantial size. Why is this important? Because when you bring in samples from other libraries - like VSL for instance, which were recorded on a soundstage that has almost no reverberation at all - you have to make sure that these also appear to be living in that same space, otherwise your virtual orchestra will simply fall apart, which is what happens in all three of those pieces.
I'm well aware that it is not easy to simulate that glowing and 'expensive' EastWest hall sound with reverb plugins, but you really have got to try the best you can, because otherwise, you'll never be able to end up with an organic and homogenous sounding ensemble.
And talking about the ensemble: you've got to respect the 'natural balance' of an orchestra much more than you do in those three fragments. You have the balance almost always wrong, I'm sorry to say: things are nearly always either too loud or too soft in comparison to what happens around them.
A good way to get a feeling for this is to listen, as much as you can, to orchestras and particularly listen to the 'weight' each section or instrument has when compared to the surrounding colours & textures.
Again, this is not an easy matter and it might take a while to develop some instinct for this, but it's very important that you do.
And finally: after being a performer during the programming stages, you've got to become a conductor during the mixing stage. I can't stress this enough. A conductor with an ear for where the heart of music 'is beating' during every single moment in the course of a piece. You should mix like a conductor with a spotlight in your hand, metaphorically speaking. Constantly move that light to bring out the section(s) or instrument(s) where the music 'is happening'. And dim the light on those sections of the orchestra which are playing a supporting role. (Not overdoing it of course, or we're back at the 'natural balance' problem.)
There's a lot more to say as you will undoubtedly know - like I said, doing convincing mock-ups is an incredibly complex and sophisticated matter -, but let's maybe leave it here for now. I hope some of the above will prove useful to you and should you have any more questions, don't hesitate.
_
Yes, you have to find some way of being able to control as much of an instrument's characteristics as your setup (hardware and software) allows you to, either by working with midi controllers or by automating the audio signal, although you'll find that you always end up doing a combination of those two. Unfortunately, I don't know enough of your particular rig, nor am I in any way familiar with Gigastudio, so I can't really make any suggestions on how to proceed. But the main thing is: samples are dead sounds, and it's up to you to breath some illusion of life into them - whatever it takes.
The first requirement of being able to breath life into samples is to think more like a performer, instead of a programmer. Take that oboe line in the third clip for instance: that is not 'performed', it is merely programmed. The notes are all in place, yes, but there it ends. And it shouldn't. Putting the notes in place is only the beginning. Because then you've got to start shaping the contour of each and every note (in order to communicate the musical phrase in the most expressive way), and pay close attention to note transitions - some can be abrupt, others should be more fluid. Also consider where to introduce some vibrato (usually on notes that have some sustain) and how to shape the dynamic curve of the whole thing. And all the while: think like a performer. If you program an oboe, become an oboe player. If you program the timpani, be a timpani player.
I know, it's terribly complex and it's an awful lot of work, but that's the nature of this virtual orchestra beast. No short cuts here.
Secondly: space. If you're creating a virtual orchestra, you have to decide on a space in which your orchestra will live. Just ONE space that is, not several spaces like you have now. Often (but not always) this space will be determined to a large extent by the type of libraries that you use, especially in the case of the EastWest libraries because these have a very prominent 'ambience' imbedded in their samples. The moment you use EastWest Gold, your choice of space is pretty much fixed: it needs to be a lush reverberant venue of substantial size. Why is this important? Because when you bring in samples from other libraries - like VSL for instance, which were recorded on a soundstage that has almost no reverberation at all - you have to make sure that these also appear to be living in that same space, otherwise your virtual orchestra will simply fall apart, which is what happens in all three of those pieces.
I'm well aware that it is not easy to simulate that glowing and 'expensive' EastWest hall sound with reverb plugins, but you really have got to try the best you can, because otherwise, you'll never be able to end up with an organic and homogenous sounding ensemble.
And talking about the ensemble: you've got to respect the 'natural balance' of an orchestra much more than you do in those three fragments. You have the balance almost always wrong, I'm sorry to say: things are nearly always either too loud or too soft in comparison to what happens around them.
A good way to get a feeling for this is to listen, as much as you can, to orchestras and particularly listen to the 'weight' each section or instrument has when compared to the surrounding colours & textures.
Again, this is not an easy matter and it might take a while to develop some instinct for this, but it's very important that you do.
And finally: after being a performer during the programming stages, you've got to become a conductor during the mixing stage. I can't stress this enough. A conductor with an ear for where the heart of music 'is beating' during every single moment in the course of a piece. You should mix like a conductor with a spotlight in your hand, metaphorically speaking. Constantly move that light to bring out the section(s) or instrument(s) where the music 'is happening'. And dim the light on those sections of the orchestra which are playing a supporting role. (Not overdoing it of course, or we're back at the 'natural balance' problem.)
There's a lot more to say as you will undoubtedly know - like I said, doing convincing mock-ups is an incredibly complex and sophisticated matter -, but let's maybe leave it here for now. I hope some of the above will prove useful to you and should you have any more questions, don't hesitate.
_
#5
mrvo28
Posted 14 November 2008 - 11:14 AM
Wow! Thank you re-peat for taking the time to give very valuable feedback. I will get the recorded and mastered versions of the pieces so I could study them, work on my mock-ups of the three pieces and simulate the live, organic sound with proper "space", and also pay attention to how the instrumentalists really perform the lines. I haven't actually heard the final product yet. I do hope it was mixed and mastered well, as I would be copying that sound if it is good. But from memory, I think the orchestra performed pretty well.
Yes I agree it is a terribly complex and time-consuming task to work with a virtual orchestra. I see now where my main problem lies - I didn't invest the necessary time and attention to the mock-ups because I was too focused on the fact that it would be recorded live, eventually. Time constraints also came into play, but really, that shouldn't be an excuse. I did add some reverb onto the VSL samples, panned it according to an orchestra stage and adjusted the mic positions but they didn't match the East West's. I gotta learn how to tell the difference (that's how inexperienced I am in this! Sheesh, I wonder if I'll be able to do it at all. It does sound fun to do, though...)
Again, I appreciate all of this! Now, off to remix my stuff...
Yes I agree it is a terribly complex and time-consuming task to work with a virtual orchestra. I see now where my main problem lies - I didn't invest the necessary time and attention to the mock-ups because I was too focused on the fact that it would be recorded live, eventually. Time constraints also came into play, but really, that shouldn't be an excuse. I did add some reverb onto the VSL samples, panned it according to an orchestra stage and adjusted the mic positions but they didn't match the East West's. I gotta learn how to tell the difference (that's how inexperienced I am in this! Sheesh, I wonder if I'll be able to do it at all. It does sound fun to do, though...)
Again, I appreciate all of this! Now, off to remix my stuff...
Share this topic:
Page 1 of 1