[clif marsiglio]

Hey Ya'll,

Working on a demo of Sonic Implant's new B3 disc for a review I'm doing.

http://khemustri.com/si-b3-bobby1.mp3

I believe the song is Lets Stay Together by The Rev. Al Green...I can't ever remember song titles Performed by Al's music director Bobby G. Summers.

Recorded out of the Kurz, into Logic. I added a little overdrive to the sound, threw on a limiter (because the overdrive sometimes clipped) and added a little reverb.

I'm going to have to throw together some raw sounds as well and let ya'll hear it all...

[kad]

Hey Clif,

My ears are a little confused by what I'm hearing here... At first I thought it was a sample with the Leslie on fast speed, but the modulation is not quite deep enough for that. Additionally, there's a slow panning across the stereo field as well. I've concluded that this must be a sample with chorus/vibrato and the Leslie on slow speed. Am I correct?

Anyway, sounds great - I'm looking very forward to hearing the rest of the demos and reading your review...

Thanks!

Kirk

[clif marsiglio]

I'll have to look at the sample I used --

The one thing I can't stand about Sonic Implants stuff these days is that their products do not have a liner notes in them anymore. you have to pull them off the CD and then print them out, which is a hassle as OSX can't read Kurz Formatted discs, so ya have to copy the PDF to floppy, which I don't even have on my Mac, so I have to run to a PC down stairs and get it from there...but my printer is on my Mac, so I have to network the file back upstairs...and then print out the notes!!!

As noted elsewhere, this is a problem with a lot of manufacturers...but its still not cool.

Add to that, I'm not too familiar with the B3...I don't need to be. I have two of the greatest B3 players alive living within 10 miles of me and I can throw stuff at them and they will either accompany me to the studio to play on a real B3 that has a leslie in an amp room already set up and mic'd OR I get a midi file and we go from there (they always tell me what patch to use -- we have my second 2600 at the studio with a backup of a selection of my libraries on hard drive -- heh! No one knows how to operate this except to load / play patches, so no worry about anyone snagging them ).

So, yeah, I'm kinda ignorant about the B3, so the review is mostly my interpretations for these guys and what they like and didn't like. I'd rather talk to the experts than make the stuff up myself

It COULD be chorus / vibrato...I'll look at the programming and KDFX settings. I did a little custom programming in some of the patches past the outboard stuff (I'm trying to dial in a decent internal overdrive in KDFX, but not satisfied YET).

Prepost Edit (Predit?):

http://www.sonicimplants.com/sonickurzweil...cumentation.pdf

Its KDFX's Rotor Speed...the Mod controls the Rotor. CC19 controls Chorus.

I didn't use the Rotor recordings as it didn't sound as good for what we were doing. Switching between Fast / Slow was a bit wierd when Mr. Summers was CONSTANTLY ramping it up and down. It would barely hit speed and he'd mod it back down. I'll do a recording with the Rotors as well as it might not be a problem...it sounded good, but the KDFX Rotor sounded better for this player

I think the product is cool I wish it wasn't just raw B3...it needs a little more programming on it, and I'll throw some of my own out there as soon as the guys are happy with them.

clif

[cerhorn]

Cliff,

I hate the leslie emulation of the KB3, even after working with John at Kurzweil to try to get the phasing more realistic. He was unable to do so.

I use an external Leslie simulator, an old Dynacord CLS-222, and use the K2500 to supply the overdrive. I get a fairly realistic Leslie this way, and when played live at high volume, there is almost no way to tell that it's a synth, instead of a real B3 and Leslie.

I listened to your demo file, but found that the Leslie is just not real for me. Still, if you are not picky, it works.

If you want to hear my programs, let me know. I'd make you a MP3 of your work, if you send a midi file, so you can hear the same work played through my setup.

The only problem is that Dynacord stopped making these years ago, and there are only a few around on the used market. They did make a series of digital emulators too, but I liked the sound of the analog one better. It is closer to a real leslie, or at least I think so.

The only other thing that comes close is the Roto cabinets that are on the market. They are as good or better than the Dynacord, but heavier to move.

Saw Tower of Power a few weeks back, and they are lugging a B3 and Leslie around again. But boy did it sound good. Their keyboardist makes it look so easy, and he's great to listen to.

--Carl

[clif marsiglio]

I don't think Leslie will ever be emulated correctly. Why? Because its all about a huge column of air thats being redirects in a circle. You idea of a real leslie might be one in the case or with the sides off or otherwise.

A recorded leslie might have different connotations to you. I've heard a lot of piano recordings and while a Kurz will NEVER sound like a real piano played next to each other. With Leslie -- then we gotta talk about mic placement. Why isn't there any air in the KB3 Leslie??? Because it was more of a model of the spinning arms as opposed to being an amp simulator. Even those don't really sound the same as none of us mic these things the same way

I get what you are saying though. To me, this is more of an effect than anything else. My B3 player didn't like it much either, but he also said it was as good as any on a synth he used and wasn't too pissed off This is also why he asks for a B3 + leslie when he is on tour (we used a VK77 for the last gig because I didn't want to have to pay for 2 additional stage hands -- and got bitched at it afterwards ).

Maybe I'll con ya into doing a heads up on Rotary stuff after I get the review more along -- I need someone that can articulate this stuff more that I can

[cerhorn]

Hi again, Clif.

Sure, I'd be glad to help in any way I can, if you need some assistance.

What I did like in the KB3 emulation is that John tried to do things right, like give the ability to move the mics, and adjust the separation between them. I think he even bothered to have the rotation of the horns in opposite directions, just like the real Leslie. He tried hard, but ran out of horsepower in the KDFX. There are some limits, and if you dig into the KDFX pages for the Leslie simulation, you'll see what I mean. I don't think there is any other preset effect in the KDFX that is so complex, or has so many adjustments.

By the way, I understand why your keyboard player wants the real thing. No keyboard I have ever played has as 'fast' action as a real B3, and there are some things you just can't do on anything but a B3. Certain slides, percussive chops on the keys, etc, just don't work on anything except a B3. I've tried, and found some ways around this on the Kurzweil keys, but some things just can't be done unless the key rebounds at the speed of the B3 keyboard.

So if he is a 'real' B3 player, I can see why he'd complain, and with justification. I just saw Roger Smith play with Tower of Power, and he was working the Hammond like a deamon! What a player! Yet he insists on a real B3 and Leslie, while the previous player, Nick Milo, used to use an XB-2 and a Motion Sound Pro, with very good results.

Anyone who grew up on a B3 and Leslie won't want to settle for less. It's like being told you have to use a Charvel instead of your usual Les Paul or play some old 'Sound King' trumpet instead of your prized 55-year-old Selmer, I guess.

There is a difference, and if you use the techniques that can only be done on a real B3, then nothing else will make you happy. I wish I had never sold my B3, but marriage and being broke can make you do things you would never do normally. Now the Kurz does almost everything my B3 would, and it's one hell of a lot lighter. Still, if I could find a good B3 in the right condition, I'd buy it in a minute! And start looking for a 145 or 147, and my old schematics and modification notes on how to get 100 watts from the amplifier.

Oh well....

Seriously, let me know if I can be of help. I'll send my email address by private post.

Regards,
--Carl