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----Lee
[ May 27, 2003, 08:39 PM: Message edited by: Lee Tyler ]
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Sequenced tracks> separate multi track recording
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#1
Lee Tyler 
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Posted 27 May 2003 - 01:21 PM
If my preference were to record an 8 track sequence from my K26X to 8 separate tracks into a multitrack audio software program, how does one synch the incoming Kurz tracks into the audio program of the puter in order for me to align them to the proper start times? (I have an upper end consumer level soundcard, Turtle Beach Santa Cruz...one line-in input/duplex) I was thinking to make a measure of a "click" track and therefore be able, with high accuracy, of synching the tracks as I lay them down individually into the software program. Is there a better way to do this?? Secondly, how would one literally add "a measure of click-track for nothing" on a K26 on an already sequenced composition? Thanks in advance, all!! Hope someone has an idea of what I am trying to do here.
----Lee
[ May 27, 2003, 08:39 PM: Message edited by: Lee Tyler ]
----Lee
[ May 27, 2003, 08:39 PM: Message edited by: Lee Tyler ]
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#2
C.K. Haun
Posted 27 May 2003 - 06:04 PM
Lee,
Coupla answers:
1) First, the MIDI-only route: hHave you considered just having the computer software record the MIDI output of your K? That's what I do in cases like this. Say I've sketched out a song on the K's internal sequencer. I'll open my software (Logic, in this case) and set it up to record MIDI. Then I'll hit "record" in Logic and "play" on the Kurz. Logic will (if you tell it to) pick up the appropriate tempo, and record all the MIDI (the Kurz will transmit the MIDI as well as playing the Audio when you hit Play). Then I've got a MIDI representation of the Kurz song in my sequencer in the computer. Easy as Pie.
1a) You can also hit "dump" on the Kurz to dump the song and record that in your computer sequener, does the same thing
1b) You can have your Kurz save the song as a .MID file (MIDI file), put that on a SCIS drive or a (ick) floppy, and load that into your sequencer.
This gives you a great deal of flexibility. Your Kurz sequencer has sent the exact MIDI it uses internally to your computer seqnecer, so you have the idential thing to play back to your Kurz. You can then modify, etc. to your hearts content.
2) The Audio route: If you want to just record each track as audio then sync them, that is pretty strightforward too, since you're only using the Kurz. Just do it. Record each track on it's own audio track in your computer seqnecer, one at a time.
Since you're using the same audio software and the same Kurzweil, without touching tempo on each at any time, you'll get equal-length recrodings. Just line up the front edges (basically) and you'll be aligned without having to click-track. Really, try it, you'll see it will be easy.
The challenge in doing this is when you're using different external instruments that aren't synced with each other. But if it's all coming from the Kurz, each of the 8 tracks will start at the same time, be at the same tempo, and fill the same track length.
If you do want to add a one-bar click track to the front (just cuz you hate me and don't trust me ) that's easy to do too.
Make a new SONG on your Kurz. Record one bar of clicking (either using the 198 (I think)) click sound, or a drum kit. Quantitize it with the Kurz sequence editor so ti's right on the quarter notes (easy).
Now, go make another SONG. This song will jsut be a chaining arrange song.
Have that song start with the click SONG, then the next semenget will be the "real" SONG.
Read up on the ARRANG function in the Kurz book for clarity on this (I think I mention it in one of my sample songs on my web site, too).
So whichever way you go, recording MIDI or Audio, you'll find that it's easier than you think, you'll be pleasantly suprised. If any of this was not clear, let me know and I'll be more detailed.
Coupla answers:
1) First, the MIDI-only route: hHave you considered just having the computer software record the MIDI output of your K? That's what I do in cases like this. Say I've sketched out a song on the K's internal sequencer. I'll open my software (Logic, in this case) and set it up to record MIDI. Then I'll hit "record" in Logic and "play" on the Kurz. Logic will (if you tell it to) pick up the appropriate tempo, and record all the MIDI (the Kurz will transmit the MIDI as well as playing the Audio when you hit Play). Then I've got a MIDI representation of the Kurz song in my sequencer in the computer. Easy as Pie.
1a) You can also hit "dump" on the Kurz to dump the song and record that in your computer sequener, does the same thing
1b) You can have your Kurz save the song as a .MID file (MIDI file), put that on a SCIS drive or a (ick) floppy, and load that into your sequencer.
This gives you a great deal of flexibility. Your Kurz sequencer has sent the exact MIDI it uses internally to your computer seqnecer, so you have the idential thing to play back to your Kurz. You can then modify, etc. to your hearts content.
2) The Audio route: If you want to just record each track as audio then sync them, that is pretty strightforward too, since you're only using the Kurz. Just do it. Record each track on it's own audio track in your computer seqnecer, one at a time.
Since you're using the same audio software and the same Kurzweil, without touching tempo on each at any time, you'll get equal-length recrodings. Just line up the front edges (basically) and you'll be aligned without having to click-track. Really, try it, you'll see it will be easy.
The challenge in doing this is when you're using different external instruments that aren't synced with each other. But if it's all coming from the Kurz, each of the 8 tracks will start at the same time, be at the same tempo, and fill the same track length.
If you do want to add a one-bar click track to the front (just cuz you hate me and don't trust me
) that's easy to do too.Make a new SONG on your Kurz. Record one bar of clicking (either using the 198 (I think)) click sound, or a drum kit. Quantitize it with the Kurz sequence editor so ti's right on the quarter notes (easy).
Now, go make another SONG. This song will jsut be a chaining arrange song.
Have that song start with the click SONG, then the next semenget will be the "real" SONG.
Read up on the ARRANG function in the Kurz book for clarity on this (I think I mention it in one of my sample songs on my web site, too).
So whichever way you go, recording MIDI or Audio, you'll find that it's easier than you think, you'll be pleasantly suprised. If any of this was not clear, let me know and I'll be more detailed.
#3
Lee Tyler
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Posted 27 May 2003 - 06:23 PM
Hey CK, first off, I trust you...really. wink I suppose I will need midi cables for the 1st scenario, right? I have always recorded straight sequences (stereo/all tracks)into my sound card. Now I really want to get the feel of multitracking and performing additional wave analysis and modifications via my audio editing software.
Scenario 1a and 1b are intriguing for sure. Must RTFM as I have not really played with midi outside the Kurz-dom realm.
Scenario three was my simple idea of aligning the tracks. I need a "leading edge" as you say. Kurzes are quiet suckers. I would prefer even the scenario of a little squeak before the downbeat on the first measure in order to align. This is why I want that first click measure. Most of all, I would like to know if it is possible to INSERT a 1 measure click thingie to an already existing sequence without killing myself. Any ideas on that, CK???
BOTTOM LINE: is the right way to go about this MIDI clock aligning....OR AUDIO what-ever aligning? What do folks do in this circumstance? I am a real newbie in this realm. Thanks for all the info so far. I knew I could trust ya'. ----Lee
[ May 28, 2003, 01:08 PM: Message edited by: C.K. Haun ]
Scenario 1a and 1b are intriguing for sure. Must RTFM as I have not really played with midi outside the Kurz-dom realm.
Scenario three was my simple idea of aligning the tracks. I need a "leading edge" as you say. Kurzes are quiet suckers. I would prefer even the scenario of a little squeak before the downbeat on the first measure in order to align. This is why I want that first click measure. Most of all, I would like to know if it is possible to INSERT a 1 measure click thingie to an already existing sequence without killing myself. Any ideas on that, CK???
BOTTOM LINE: is the right way to go about this MIDI clock aligning....OR AUDIO what-ever aligning? What do folks do in this circumstance? I am a real newbie in this realm. Thanks for all the info so far. I knew I could trust ya'. ----Lee
Quote
C.K. Haun:
Lee,
Coupla answers:
1) First, the MIDI-only route: hHave you considered just (extensive quoting removed -- C.K.)
So whichever way you go, recording MIDI or Audio, you'll find that it's easier than you think, you'll be pleasantly suprised. If any of this was not clear, let me know and I'll be more detailed.
Lee,
Coupla answers:
1) First, the MIDI-only route: hHave you considered just (extensive quoting removed -- C.K.)
So whichever way you go, recording MIDI or Audio, you'll find that it's easier than you think, you'll be pleasantly suprised. If any of this was not clear, let me know and I'll be more detailed.
[ May 28, 2003, 01:08 PM: Message edited by: C.K. Haun ]
#4
C.K. Haun
Posted 28 May 2003 - 07:29 AM
Quote
Lee Tyler:
I suppose I will need midi cables for the 1st scenario, right? I
I suppose I will need midi cables for the 1st scenario, right? I
INSERT a 1 measure click thingie to an already existing sequence without killing myself
You could do that, But It Would Be Wrong to quote Nixon (who apparently only I remember).
You do not need to modify your existing sequences. All you need to do is create a new one-bar sequence of clicks, and chain the existing song to that.
Key concept here that you can use a lot on the Kurz to use it as your primary composition tool:
Kurzweil Songs can contain other Kurzeil Songs.
You need to take advantage of the Kurzweils' ARRANG feature, and you'll be A Happy Guy.
Step by step:
* Right now you have one SONG, the 8 track sequence you want to record.
* Go into the SONG page and record a NEW, one-bar sequence that is a kick drum on the 1/4s. Same tempo as the other SONG. Using the event editor copy these 4 notes to the same 8 channels as in your other SONG. Name this "intro click" or something
* Now create a new SONG. DO NOT recrod anything to this song, it is there JUST to be a player for the other two seqences.
*In this new song, Hit EDIT, then the soft button ARRAG. This is the place where you can chain all the sequences together in your Kurz.
You now want to have the first STEP in this song be the "Click song". Add a new STEP (I am not sitting at my kurz so forget the exact button) and have the next STEP be the song you want a click track intro for.
* Save this song as "stuff plus click" or something.
* Now PLAY "stuff plus click" 8 times, recording each track one at a time like you planned.
"Stuff plus click" will play the click 1 bar song, then the real song you want, then stop.
That will give you exactly what you're looking for.
Again, look at the ARRANG section in the manual for more details.
This is a very powerful feature of the Kurz. I used this extesively when I recorded a complete CD using only the K2500 sequencer.
#5
Lee Tyler
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Posted 28 May 2003 - 11:26 AM
Thanks for all the goodies, CK. I am thankfully very well versed on songs/sequences and arrangements so I can follow your suggestions to the TEE! I am going to give it a shot tonight and also will consider getting a midi cable. Just 25 buckeroos. If you don't mind and have the time, just what exactly will midi communication enable me to do OTHER than use the timecode to synch my individual Kurz tracks to the individual Cool Edit tracks? I am a fast learner. I always stayed away from midi due to the often "cheeezy" puter based sounds. Think it is time for a bit of "enlightenment". Thanks big-tyme, Lee
Quote
C.K. Haun:
Yes, you'd have to dive into the MIDI thang. You will want to someday, but for now if you just want to do audio:
INSERT a 1 measure click thingie to an already existing sequence without killing myself
You could do that, But It Would Be Wrong to quote Nixon (who apparently only I remember).
You do not need to modify your existing sequences. All you need to do is create a new one-bar sequence of clicks, and chain the existing song to that.
Key concept here that you can use a lot on the Kurz to use it as your primary composition tool:
Kurzweil Songs can contain other Kurzeil Songs.
You need to take advantage of the Kurzweils' ARRANG feature, and you'll be A Happy Guy.
Step by step:
* Right now you have one SONG, the 8 track sequence you want to record.
* Go into the SONG page and record a NEW, one-bar sequence that is a kick drum on the 1/4s. Same tempo as the other SONG. Using the event editor copy these 4 notes to the same 8 channels as in your other SONG. Name this "intro click" or something
* Now create a new SONG. DO NOT recrod anything to this song, it is there JUST to be a player for the other two seqences.
*In this new song, Hit EDIT, then the soft button ARRAG. This is the place where you can chain all the sequences together in your Kurz.
You now want to have the first STEP in this song be the "Click song". Add a new STEP (I am not sitting at my kurz so forget the exact button) and have the next STEP be the song you want a click track intro for.
* Save this song as "stuff plus click" or something.
* Now PLAY "stuff plus click" 8 times, recording each track one at a time like you planned.
"Stuff plus click" will play the click 1 bar song, then the real song you want, then stop.
That will give you exactly what you're looking for.
Again, look at the ARRANG section in the manual for more details.
This is a very powerful feature of the Kurz. I used this extesively when I recorded a complete CD using only the K2500 sequencer.
Quote
Lee Tyler:
I suppose I will need midi cables for the 1st scenario, right? I
I suppose I will need midi cables for the 1st scenario, right? I
INSERT a 1 measure click thingie to an already existing sequence without killing myself
You could do that, But It Would Be Wrong to quote Nixon (who apparently only I remember).
You do not need to modify your existing sequences. All you need to do is create a new one-bar sequence of clicks, and chain the existing song to that.
Key concept here that you can use a lot on the Kurz to use it as your primary composition tool:
Kurzweil Songs can contain other Kurzeil Songs.
You need to take advantage of the Kurzweils' ARRANG feature, and you'll be A Happy Guy.
Step by step:
* Right now you have one SONG, the 8 track sequence you want to record.
* Go into the SONG page and record a NEW, one-bar sequence that is a kick drum on the 1/4s. Same tempo as the other SONG. Using the event editor copy these 4 notes to the same 8 channels as in your other SONG. Name this "intro click" or something
* Now create a new SONG. DO NOT recrod anything to this song, it is there JUST to be a player for the other two seqences.
*In this new song, Hit EDIT, then the soft button ARRAG. This is the place where you can chain all the sequences together in your Kurz.
You now want to have the first STEP in this song be the "Click song". Add a new STEP (I am not sitting at my kurz so forget the exact button) and have the next STEP be the song you want a click track intro for.
* Save this song as "stuff plus click" or something.
* Now PLAY "stuff plus click" 8 times, recording each track one at a time like you planned.
"Stuff plus click" will play the click 1 bar song, then the real song you want, then stop.
That will give you exactly what you're looking for.
Again, look at the ARRANG section in the manual for more details.
This is a very powerful feature of the Kurz. I used this extesively when I recorded a complete CD using only the K2500 sequencer.
#6
Lee Tyler
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Posted 29 May 2003 - 11:44 AM
Well, Cool Edit 2.1 does not recognize good ole' MIDI, but I DO have MIDI in my puter. :confused: CEP understands SMPTE and 4 other codes, but not MIDI, per se. Still investigating here. Thanks for all the help so far. ---Lee
[ May 29, 2003, 06:23 PM: Message edited by: Lee Tyler ]
[ May 29, 2003, 06:23 PM: Message edited by: Lee Tyler ]
#7
Lee Tyler
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Posted 29 May 2003 - 04:08 PM
CK WROTE: Okee Dokee. Midi can wait. Progress will not.
I am attempting to "mark" a sequenced song/arrangement with one measure of a quantized click track before the main piece starts in order to eventually align tracks in Cool Edit by zooming in on Cool Edit's edit view down to the sample level and making a simple alignment of all tracks involved. Simple enuff.
I made a quickie 4 measure piano (TRK 1) and violin (TRK 2) version of the theme from "Schindler's List". Don't sound too shabby.
It is song #618.SCHINDLER , I then made a song comprised of a 4 beat click track (TRK 16) of the same meter and called it TEST, song #619 . I then made the "arrangement" song called LIST, song #700 . On the #700 song (the "arrangement"), I made a simple arrangement of song # 619 in step 1, and song # 618, step two. So far, so good. (Been there, done that for the past 16 months) What I have YET to figger out is how to mute the tracks on the arrangement (#700) that I will eventually load into Cool Edit, ONE track at a time. I can MUTE the original song, #618 no problem in the MIXER window, but I am unable so far to mute any channels on the arrangement song #700 (LIST), because the sequence of the main song, #618 is initiated. Am I missing something here? Help?? LOL Thanks 
~~~Lee
[ May 29, 2003, 10:22 PM: Message edited by: Lee Tyler ]
Quote
2) The Audio route: If you want to just record each track as audio then sync them, that is pretty strightforward too, since you're only using the Kurz. Just do it. Record each track on it's own audio track in your computer seqnecer, one at a time.
Since you're using the same audio software and the same Kurzweil, without touching tempo on each at any time, you'll get equal-length recrodings. Just line up the front edges (basically) and you'll be aligned without having to click-track. Really, try it, you'll see it will be easy.
The challenge in doing this is when you're using different external instruments that aren't synced with each other. But if it's all coming from the Kurz, each of the 8 tracks will start at the same time, be at the same tempo, and fill the same track length.
If you do want to add a one-bar click track to the front (just cuz you hate me and don't trust me ) that's easy to do too.
Make a new SONG on your Kurz. Record one bar of clicking (either using the 198 (I think)) click sound, or a drum kit. Quantitize it with the Kurz sequence editor so ti's right on the quarter notes (easy).
Now, go make another SONG. This song will jsut be a chaining arrange song.
Have that song start with the click SONG, then the next semenget will be the "real" SONG.
Read up on the ARRANG function in the Kurz book for clarity on this (I think I mention it in one of my sample songs on my web site, too).
Since you're using the same audio software and the same Kurzweil, without touching tempo on each at any time, you'll get equal-length recrodings. Just line up the front edges (basically) and you'll be aligned without having to click-track. Really, try it, you'll see it will be easy.
The challenge in doing this is when you're using different external instruments that aren't synced with each other. But if it's all coming from the Kurz, each of the 8 tracks will start at the same time, be at the same tempo, and fill the same track length.
If you do want to add a one-bar click track to the front (just cuz you hate me and don't trust me ) that's easy to do too.
Make a new SONG on your Kurz. Record one bar of clicking (either using the 198 (I think)) click sound, or a drum kit. Quantitize it with the Kurz sequence editor so ti's right on the quarter notes (easy).
Now, go make another SONG. This song will jsut be a chaining arrange song.
Have that song start with the click SONG, then the next semenget will be the "real" SONG.
Read up on the ARRANG function in the Kurz book for clarity on this (I think I mention it in one of my sample songs on my web site, too).
I am attempting to "mark" a sequenced song/arrangement with one measure of a quantized click track before the main piece starts in order to eventually align tracks in Cool Edit by zooming in on Cool Edit's edit view down to the sample level and making a simple alignment of all tracks involved. Simple enuff.
I made a quickie 4 measure piano (TRK 1) and violin (TRK 2) version of the theme from "Schindler's List". Don't sound too shabby.
It is song #618.SCHINDLER , I then made a song comprised of a 4 beat click track (TRK 16) of the same meter and called it TEST, song #619 . I then made the "arrangement" song called LIST, song #700 . On the #700 song (the "arrangement"), I made a simple arrangement of song # 619 in step 1, and song # 618, step two. So far, so good. (Been there, done that for the past 16 months) What I have YET to figger out is how to mute the tracks on the arrangement (#700) that I will eventually load into Cool Edit, ONE track at a time. I can MUTE the original song, #618 no problem in the MIXER window, but I am unable so far to mute any channels on the arrangement song #700 (LIST), because the sequence of the main song, #618 is initiated. Am I missing something here? Help?? LOL Thanks ~~~Lee[ May 29, 2003, 10:22 PM: Message edited by: Lee Tyler ]
#8
Lee Tyler
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Posted 29 May 2003 - 04:41 PM
Quick workaround (so far): Mute tracks as needed via the arrangement editor. Me thinks this is the bestesseessess way to achieve what I am looking to do. Any comments or ideas are MOST welcome. ----Lee
#9
freddynl
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Posted 31 May 2003 - 11:53 AM
Lee,
Since you now started with midi, you might try out another possibility.
Just record each track in a midi track on your pc, with the help of sequencer software.
Actually this is what I do, as I do have some problems with small screens.
In fact I just play the track on the kurz while recording straight in Sonar.
Works excellent as the Kurz sends all sysex with it.
Once all tracks are recorded in midi on separated channels I just hit play on the pc to record the audio part. (I use cool edit pro for that)
just an idea "
Since you now started with midi, you might try out another possibility.
Just record each track in a midi track on your pc, with the help of sequencer software.
Actually this is what I do, as I do have some problems with small screens.
In fact I just play the track on the kurz while recording straight in Sonar.
Works excellent as the Kurz sends all sysex with it.
Once all tracks are recorded in midi on separated channels I just hit play on the pc to record the audio part. (I use cool edit pro for that)
just an idea "
#10
Lee Tyler
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Posted 31 May 2003 - 05:20 PM
Hi Fred. Thanks for chiming in! Yes, your idea is right on the mark, but the problem is that Cool Edit Pro 2.1 is all I have on this computer. I am sort of against a wall here, but the test session I had yesterday turned out perfectly synched tracks, as I expected, and it wasn't hard at all to add a 1 measure click intro to my sequence and align them with CEP zoom mode. A baby could do it. So for now, since I do not have a sequencer software proggy, this deal will work out most fine without compromising sound quality, wasting time, inaccuracies, etc. "It's all good", as we say, nowadays! Thanks again! Been a while, Fred. Nice to see an old friend. Cheers! ~~~Lee
Quote
freddynl:
Lee,
Since you now started with midi, you might try out another possibility.
Just record each track in a midi track on your pc, with the help of sequencer software.
Actually this is what I do, as I do have some problems with small screens.
In fact I just play the track on the kurz while recording straight in Sonar.
Works excellent as the Kurz sends all sysex with it.
Once all tracks are recorded in midi on separated channels I just hit play on the pc to record the audio part. (I use cool edit pro for that)
just an idea "
Lee,
Since you now started with midi, you might try out another possibility.
Just record each track in a midi track on your pc, with the help of sequencer software.
Actually this is what I do, as I do have some problems with small screens.
In fact I just play the track on the kurz while recording straight in Sonar.
Works excellent as the Kurz sends all sysex with it.
Once all tracks are recorded in midi on separated channels I just hit play on the pc to record the audio part. (I use cool edit pro for that)
just an idea "
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