I am a ship jumping ProTools HD3 user.

Going directly to native processing and Logic. (actually been there for a while)

This is a straight question. What is the gain for paying more money for TDM plugins versus native plugins.

The prices just flat out make no sense. Is it simply a proprietary thing that Digidesign gathers a cut off TDM sales - so that makes the prices higher.

Is there a sonic difference - not that it matters even in the least - but I would like to know the reasoning for this. I own a fair amount of TDM plugins that I want to be rid of for the more cost effective, also processing is not a problem at all anymore.

Again I really don't get the point - the need for DSP chips to offload the CPU is over with - except for extremely low (there is no such thing as no latency) latency recording and playback.

Is that the advantage - and should I even keep my HD3 system?

I'm really thinking it's time to get rid of all of this overly expensive gear.

Thank you,

sorry for the rant,

Precison

Its the same reasons computers need faster and faster video cards.

I've seen current games running on older PCs with $700 videocards DESTROY my newer computers because they are offloading the work onto something else.

With a DSP based synth, you can ensure the timing is EXACTLY what you say it is...no having to fight for a bit of CPU slice when the drive needs to do something, or a fancy graphic shows up on the screen.

Its a much more pure sound and in a far more controlled environment.

What does that mean in the real world? Not much...most people won't even hear the difference. It would be nice instead of having to upgrade computers all the time, we just upgraded DSPs or added more to the mix...that is a major advantage. But you can get by without all of this...and with the power of computers these days, anyone that says they can't do it all on a computer is either fooling themselves or a bad arranger / engineer.

This is a complicated question. With PT HD3 TDM you are paying a lot of money for four things: sound quality, compatability, reliabilty, and prestige.

1. Sound quality- with the exception of a handful of plug-ins like URS, Altiverb, and the plug-ins onn the UAD-1 and Poco cards the TDM plug-ins, while overpriced, simply sound better. On the other hand the A/D convertors in an HD3 rig while good certainly can be topped for that kind of money by Lavry, Mytek, etc.

2. Compatability- ProTools is thee industry standard and what you will generally find at the top notch studios and post production facilities.

3. Reliability- if you do things and use the things that Digi says are compatible EXACTLY the way Digi recommends no native system is as reliable, although my dual G5 based Logic rig is starting to get close.

4. Prestige- It'ss like driving a Benz, it says you are one of the big boys. I was hired to do a film a few years ago and as soon as the producer realized I di not have PT TDM our relationship went downhill because in his mind the the big bouys had PT and I could not get him past that preconception even though he could not articulatee what I could do with it that I couldn't with my rig.

So, bottom line IMHO is does your caliber of work pay enough that it makes keeping your HD3 rig a worthwhile investment? If you sell it what will you replace it with? Do you want to enter the native world jungle whicch can be very frustrating as it can take a while
to fine tune your sytem so tht it runs solidly?

The above is not necessary true. A plugin done by one manufacture produce the same sound quality if its native or tdm. However, that said, it is true that there are more high end plugins available only in tdm format.
My guess is that the price for the same plug is higher for tdm simply because they can...

I can't see any other reason why the an oxford plug will cost less for a powercore DSP card then it does to HD3. But that's only a guess.

Danny

I did indeed mean that there were more high end plug-ins for TDM and not that the same plug-in's TDM version would sound better than its native counterpart.

isn't latency still an issue between TDM and Native?

It's pretty much what I expected.

Latency isn't too much of a problem for me as my mixing knowledge is limited - which is a plus in some ways - for tracking and things like that not too many problems for me.

I'm going to think about keeping this system for renting purposes - but that might not work either.

Thank you guys for your replies - helping me digest this thing.

I'm pretty sure both RTAS and TDM plug in makers have to pay a fee to use the technology. Audio Units and VST are open source. That would make the price lower for these formats. I use a dual G5 native Logic rig as my main system, and use an Mbox for PT compatability, as well as the ability to honestly answer yes when the guy who has no idea asks if I have Pro Tools. I have never used a Pro Tools system (in 12 years of professional audio work) that runs as smoothly and trouble free as my Logic rig does now. Unless I power up my Mbox. Then i HAVE to run disk utility and repair permissions. Now with full PDC, you get no delay on mix, and with careful management, delay in tracking really no issue either. I sometimes bounce my drum tracks before doing 20+ background vocal tracks, so I can set my buffer down to 128 samples.

Plus, as you know, to get any serious plug-in count with HD, and high sample rates, you need to move up to HD Accel. Ouch! That sh*t is expensive! A studio I regularly use has an HD2 in the B room I track vocals in alot. I get a few Oxford Eqs and it's over. I'd be bummed if it was my money.

that's my .02
M

1. The latency is a big issue. I have not seen a native system where you can record in a true "in the box" fashion and give session players a reasonable and workable headphone signal not over run with latency without using some sort of external mixing solution (or dir-mix knob).

2. TDM/DAE is the only driver that can run alongside native (core audio) inside of logic right now which gives it a unique quality. Hence, harnessing the power of the native machine while offloading a big portion of heavy lifting to protools all under the same session roof is pretty well unachievable in any other app.

3. Sound quality has been debated to a nuclear level. I do believe that splitting out the work load between native and DAE creates a better stereo field and creates a more stable session environment. I do think some of the higher end tdm plugs sound and feel more pro.

4. Protools as an app, when setup properly, is much more stable than logic or any other daw app for that matter. I have been using protools for a long time and for me, this is unquestionable. My logic rig has gotten much more stable but protools has been pretty rock solid since its inception.

I do think that my G5, hd3 combo rig is a machine so Fr@(kin powerful that I don't know what else I could ask for? It truly is the best of both worlds and I wouldn't even think about giving up the hd3 portion when it comes to doing serious finish work.

Add all of these replies up and you should be utterly frustrated so good luck in your decision!

steve

This may sound smug

point 1 - Grab any interface or sound card with zero latency monitoring capabilites - or if one is a pro use an expensive board that you would route each individual track directly and monitor through that - problem solved.

point 2 - So what - Those few plugs that you get in the DAE environment are not at all worth a years house mortage. Since we're speaking of Logic Pro with a G5 I could care less about DAE (I'm still working happily with a dual 1.25 G4 - I would be home free with a dual G5). Outside clients and all.

point 3 - Two engines that sum to the same DAE outputs would not be superior to all channels direct out to a (pro-tools priced) piece of analog gear with proper configuration. Sound and feel are overly subjective words. Client happy - more money earned and saved - lower cost - I will die with those options - not pro sound and feel. A pro is a pro. He/She makes the sound and feel not TDM or the hardware it looks to emulate or Audio Units for that matter.

point 4 - right on the money - Logic has caught up in the last two years. Through my experience.

last point - G5 plus PCI cards does not make sense to me. Like having a house within a house. You personally could ask for Lavry - Prism - Mytek converters first - worth those PCI cards by far.

Thanks for the reply - it is helping to make my decision clearer daily.

Predicting pro-tools death within 3 years.

cool....looks like you got it sorted out!

In re reading your original post

"Is there a sonic difference - not that it matters even in the least - but I would like to know the reasoning for this."

the "not that it matters even in the least" says to me that you are basing this decision entirely on cost.

direct versus mix monitoring (zero latency monitoring) on most interfaces is not a solution that is acceptable for many. It is a pain in the ass and doesn't allow you to give headphones anything but a dry signal if the pot is turned all the way to direct (which is necessary to achieve good latency). Need a verb or some comression and you want it to be audible in the phones? Want to monitor front and center, the actual track that is being recorded versus an upstream version of the track? These are issues that hd3 solves in a very easy way. Using a big board to solve the latency problem via routing is an option many are trying to avoid because it creates new problems.

We don't need to debate the def of a pro. If you are here to tell everyone what the deal is, than what you are really gaining is therapuetic value of ranting. If you are curious why some (I use this word respectfully as 90+% of all high end studios anchor to a protools rig of some sort) use protools, your post might generate some replies. Either all of the people who use hd for specific reasons are wrong or MAYBE, the is some value.

If there is no difference to your ears and/or your workflow and your clients are happy then sell your hd box and use the cash for your home mortgage.

We'll throw this post into a 3 year time capsule and check back. My guess is that protools may still be around.

p.s. don't mean to sound smug either :>

Great - that settles a lot of things for me.

Yes it was theraputic and it helped move everything along.

Thanks for the back and forth - it really helped a lot.

Precison

3 years later Protools is still here!

3 years later and PT-HD is still here, still more stable and now has pretty sweet "elastic audio"..... and it still costs a fortune.